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ms
Joined: 14 Apr 2004
Posts: 613
Location: Naples, Florida
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 Posted: Sat Jul 10, 2004 8:32 am Post subject: speed dialing |
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When I started to develop a painful shoulder due to mouse movements [funny but true], I looked around for ways to reduce the mouse movement. At the same time, I knew that I was running out of useful key combinations on the keyboard that I could invoke with my left hand. I have always felt that Tool choices, and the Menu Bar, are hinderances to intuitive design, interupting the work flow and thought processes.
So I started looking around for additional or different input devices. The Logitech mouse was a big help, but the required right finger movements were not so good. Then I discovered a company called P.I. Engineering [http://www.x-keys.com/]. I gave them a call, and after looking at several offerings, including a foot pedal, I bought the super-dooper keypad called 'X-Keys Professional' [http://www.x-keys.com/xkeys/xkpro.php].
And never looked back.
I'm near my goal of eliminating all mouse trips to the Tools or the Menu Bar; with 116 keys, I should be able to achieve it. I've had this critter for about 6 weeks now. Oddly, remembering the keys is not as hard as I thought, but I did make a chart to help out. The software is still immature, but it works and is robust.
–ms |
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Matt
Joined: 13 Apr 2004
Posts: 349
Location: Sterling, Virginia
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| Posted: Sat Jul 10, 2004 8:39 am Post subject: |
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| I use an x-keys tablet as well, I wouldn't consider giving it up. |
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ms
Joined: 14 Apr 2004
Posts: 613
Location: Naples, Florida
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| Posted: Sat Jul 10, 2004 11:09 am Post subject: |
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Matt,
Have you figured out how to program an option key down [and up] event? or better a toggle, I suppose. You know: as for example when you want to switch objects with the pickle fork.
–ms |
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Matt
Joined: 13 Apr 2004
Posts: 349
Location: Sterling, Virginia
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| Posted: Sat Jul 10, 2004 2:30 pm Post subject: |
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| I think I just use the option key. |
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PaulH
Joined: 16 Apr 2004
Posts: 19
Location: Los Angeles, CA
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| Posted: Wed Jul 14, 2004 1:52 pm Post subject: |
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MS and Matt –
Thank you for opening this discussion. This could be very interesting and I hope, very healing for many of us.
My personal experience, includes 5 1/2 years of deep tissue physical therapy, once a week, and swimming once a day for one hour (It took about 6-8 months to get to the hour). All this to heal and keep my shoulder and arm/wrist flexible and healthy. It's still somewhat sore and if I get into a marathon of work, I pay for it big time (which still occurs more than I want). I've come to accept my shoulder (which by the way, is one of the most complicated joints in our bodies) will never be the same again. Love/Hate this computer.
The good news is I'm now in great shape physically, albeit with a shoulder that always reminds me to keep swimming. My back and upper shoulder/neck combination is no longer a stiff, inflexible mass as a result of years of drawing over a drafting table.
A side note! All ergonomics in regard to work station, equipment, etc. have been researched and applied. Still a sore shoulder.
I keep at it because I love doing architecture. Hope springs eternal, and I know there are ways to correct and eliminate this issue for myself and others. I'm convinced now that we as designers, architects, developers, manufacturers etc., are responsible for both creating this issue and allowing it to persist.
And the price is terrible. Mind you there are things we can do, as I've mentioned above for my own therapy, but come on, why do we tolerate and contribute to this dis–ease. For instance: standard table heights are 29 – 30" above the floor. That's 2 – 3" higher for a mouse in a decent ergonomic condition that allows for complete relaxation of the shoulder/wrist. I know there are multiple solutions available to resolve this issue. Most of which are costly relative to standard table purchases or just stupid add ons, like typing/mouse tablets mounted under the desk/table.
Personally I use a simple table from IKEA, if you can imagine that, for $130 that has adjustable legs. Simple and affordable for my whole staff. And every one is at a different height. I didn't think it would be that diverse, but it is. One small young lady has it set at 25".
So . . . I know I've gone off on this, however, I obviously feel very strongly about it and table height is just the tip of the iceberg.
What tools are you using to eliminate or correct this issue? And why do we tolerate tools that contribute to our dis–ease so we can do what we love doing.
MS and Matt have suggestions I haven't explored yet. I'm left wondering what else is out there I don't know about, despite years of exploring alternatives and years of expensive therapy.
What are you doing about it? What have you found? And most important, what works? Care to engage?
Paul
G4, 1 meg ram
OSX 10.2.6
Cinema 21" display
IKEA adjustable table set at 27"
and one at 42" standing height.
Microsoft 3 button laser mouse (with cord)
Wacom tablet
Herman Miller's Aeron chair
Swim, physical therapy
Trying to take frequent breaks from computer
(and not very successfully)
Great mattress (Design Within Reach)
The rest is personal, don't ask. |
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Bill Stanley
Joined: 15 Apr 2004
Posts: 315
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| Posted: Wed Jul 14, 2004 3:07 pm Post subject: |
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I am of the opinion that in the future Engineered Software will be able to reduce the mouse travel distance significantly.
Thanks for the discussion.
Bill Stanley |
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ms
Joined: 14 Apr 2004
Posts: 613
Location: Naples, Florida
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| Posted: Wed Jul 14, 2004 3:17 pm Post subject: |
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Paul,
Can we talk? 
Funny you mentioned the shoulder- I have the same damn thing. At first I thought it was the rotator cuff, but that's not it. My doctor-friend gave me the name of the afflicted tissue, but heck it sounds so complex that he could be making it up. It's been with me for about 12 months.
One thing I did was lose a lot of weight; I am down 57 pounds, and this has helped the posture in the chair considerably. I also take Iyengar Yoga classes 3 times a week, and this also is very, very strengthening; for those who do not know about the different types of yoga, this is one that really makes you work hard.
I bought the Logitech mouse, wireless, with bunches of buttons. I think it as Matt that recommended it. Truthfully I find it awkward, so that just shows how personal this stuff can be. I think the MS 3 button mouse was about the best. It's very light.
But the X-Keys Pro has made a huge difference, not only in making the drawing process far more intuitive [it is hard to over-emphasize this], but in nearly eliminating trips to the tool bar, and to the menu bar. Those trips involve a deliterious hand motion, apparently.
I am using an old Mayline table with the monitor on it. This is bad. I'll look at your recommendation, but I think built-ins are the way to go. It's only been three years in this office and it's still not furnished. But that's another story.
Breaks. Take a lot of them. I use the desktop pictures: set it to change pictures once an hour, and get up when it changes.
Go back to hand drawing for some things. I am now doing some preliminary planning by hand. Recently we have had quite a bit of land planning, so I go in the other room and sit at a different table. Change-up helps a lot.
Thanks for jumping in. I'd really like to hear a little more from Matt about how he uses his X-Keys, which one he has, and perhaps we can share experiences about key assignments.
Gotta go to the beach...water temp is 89°...
–ms |
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PaulH
Joined: 16 Apr 2004
Posts: 19
Location: Los Angeles, CA
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| Posted: Wed Jul 14, 2004 4:01 pm Post subject: |
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MS
You're off to the Beach and it's 89. Well thanks a lot. It's 99 here in Los Angeles and no beach in site for this day. I like your priority, I think I'll go for a swim.
Bill
Reduced mouse action would be interesting. I've wondered at times if more action with the "tool" whatever that would be, aka. like a pencil/pen, would be more fluid and less constricted. Like using pencils when sketching. It's almost counter-intuitive but more like a dance. I've found the more detailed and precise the drawing becomes my upper torso, neck, shoulder and arm movement becomes constrained and less mobile and fluid. There's a relationship between precision of drawing and physical control/constraint with the computer I would love to reverse. And by that I don't mean a loss of precision. I can't do it with the Wacom tablet, but I keep trying once in a while.
I think it's the horizontal axis of the mouse action that is a big contributer to this issue. We are thinking and designing in three dimensions and "moving" in 2 dimensions on a horizontal surface. The shoulder/arm was not designed to do that for extended periods over many years.
I'm encouraged that engsw is concerned about this issue. |
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PaulH
Joined: 16 Apr 2004
Posts: 19
Location: Los Angeles, CA
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| Posted: Wed Jul 14, 2004 4:29 pm Post subject: |
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MS
OK, I'll explore the X-Keys. Losing weight also helped me, it was a by product of the swimming. And yoga is terriffic. I forgot to mention that. I practice estanga. It's slow and concentrates on the stretch. It's not vigorous. Using desktop pictures as a timing device for breaks is a great idea. Thanks. I also do a lot more with the pencil these days. It's like meeting an old lover. And she's still lovely.
The physical therapy I've found the most beneficial and transformative was founded by Ida Rolf. Rolfing is what they call her procedure, however, that's not what I'm engaged in. She passed the flame to Joseph Heller who, years later, founded Heller Work. As a former JPL scientist he was caught by her deep knowledge of how the body works and then he incorporated a less intrusive method. I'm amazed at the youthful, flexible and vibrant results from the work. I have a very different body now that has reclaimed a youthfullness I thought was long gone. It has taken a long time, (I'm talking years here) collectively expensive, painful at times in the beginning but not any more, and worth every penny I've spent. And I'm still at it.
Bye now, gone swimming. |
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pbacot
Joined: 15 Apr 2004
Posts: 844
Location: Northern California
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| Posted: Wed Jul 14, 2004 6:13 pm Post subject: |
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Other ideas.
The corner table idea, allowing you to rest your arm may be worth a try Paul.
I've seen people using a yoga exercise ball for a seat. Looks great. keeps your upper body free and erect. Just don't lean back.
_________________
Peter B |
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patrickm
Joined: 13 Apr 2004
Posts: 314
Location: santa barbara, ca
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| Posted: Wed Jul 14, 2004 6:35 pm Post subject: |
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This is an interesting topic...
Besides yoga, stretching, etc, another thing you might try is Hellerwork. It is similar to Rolfing: a real deep tissue massage. It really opens up joints in the body and decreases wear and tear on the joints. I had a shoulder impingement (bone on bone rubbing in the joint) 10 years ago and did some physical therapy and a lot of Hellerwork and have been symptom free for 9.75 years. (At the time, the doctor said it would be a lifelong nagging thing.) Besides Hellerwork, one of the keys to fixing my impingement was to learn to relax and drop my shoulders while working.
Another good ergonimic option is a sit/stand desk. I have one from Ikea that allows me to easily adjust the height. When writing, I lower it to the level of the adjacent layout table. When just doing computer work, I raise it to 48" or so. Unfortunately, I bought it a couple years ago and it appears to be discontinued. |
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PaulH
Joined: 16 Apr 2004
Posts: 19
Location: Los Angeles, CA
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| Posted: Thu Jul 15, 2004 8:13 pm Post subject: |
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MS
Your request "Can we talk" I didn't respond to. I just thought it was an intro to the subject and on reviewing the posts felt it might have been a request I overlooked. The shoulder you have described will take some time to heal (don't even think about a blade). So if you're interested, sure although I'm not clear how that would occur within this format. I'm very reluctant revealing info on the internet. |
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Bill Stanley
Joined: 15 Apr 2004
Posts: 315
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| Posted: Thu Jul 15, 2004 11:09 pm Post subject: |
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Monitors are big now and will surely get larger.
While we do not profess to understand how to appeal to the medical aspects it would certainly appear that productivity could be increased and the fatigue factor decreased by reducing the distance the mouse travels during a workday. It would seem like mouse travel reduction should reduce the fatigue factor and assist with any medical circumstance.
A million command keys does not seem to be the answer.
Contextual menus seem to benefit from multi button mice. Some are reporting a ten to one reduction of mouse travel with the use of context menus. Likely we don’t have all the context menus correct for everyone.
Scroll wheels also seem to be an easy method to reduce the mouse travel. We wonder how many have a scroll wheel mouse.
Engineered Software is open to any and all suggestions. Between us a few solutions will be found for revision seven.
Thanks.
Bill Stanley |
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patrickm
Joined: 13 Apr 2004
Posts: 314
Location: santa barbara, ca
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| Posted: Fri Jul 16, 2004 8:33 am Post subject: |
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| Maybe it's a dumb idea and I admit that I don't know much about scroll wheels, turbo mice or anything (hey, I use an Apple one button mouse), but it seems like something like a gas pedal might be nice -- by holding down a modifier key, the mouse travel would speed up... |
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Dave Z
Joined: 13 Apr 2004
Posts: 69
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| Posted: Fri Jul 16, 2004 9:47 am Post subject: |
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| I would encourage you to investigate other non-Apple mice. I use a simple Kensington 2 button mouse and even that has adjustible travel speed. Quick mouse movements move the cursor rapidly and slow mouse movements allow you to work in a small area. Not to mention the usefullness of the second button. |
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