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P.C.
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Joined: 26 May 2004
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Location: Denmark
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 Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 2:17 pm Post subject: |
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I find it exelent that again houses will be able to profit from epoxy and carbon fiber elements, still I find it more Green so to say, to rely on materials that is not thought as a gadged to solve specialised structural problems, I think about that as reinforcing the patch to repair thaos expected structural problems and , I guess as allway's the cost of these specialised fittings and enginered compoments are both high for the ready unit and the raw material be rare, ----- or over the years I guess it will be the more that is transformed into heat energy, by our vastefull use of valuble raw materials.
Anyway the idear to be able to use hardlly any substance to facricate sheets material, and a simple yet most rasional building method, proberly produce more substance, more architecture, from almost anything even scrap materials , that I find more visionary than acturly continuing out the old dead road, ---- sure the universal steel fitting to connect timbers was smart , but it killed the craftsmanship , splitted the wood by overnailing , and can not be further develobed ; if we must call it develobment, that everything became bad but cheap.
Now I wonder about fire resistance about these new gadgeds, petrochemicals are not known to be the safest choice there --- and further patching and adding fire resistance , I would reconise as just yet a prove, this is a dead end road --- ofcaurse it might not be, but ehen what to do with all that Bamboo, all that steel sheet, all those jobs in enginered layerd sheets materials , what to do with all that astroide material, if the only thing that will build a vessel, is fumable petrochemical substances, where sheer frame structures by micro welding, can offer a double walled cooling element shuttle hull. What to do with all that Ecology if it can not be turned into architecture ? |
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P.C.
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Joined: 26 May 2004
Posts: 2163
Location: Denmark
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| Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 2:36 pm Post subject: |
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----- But maybe I better explain my belive in computed structures as like 3dh , by the way these structures are engaged. The systems where you reconise vector defined structure is like the old day's, it's measuring the timbers and preparing the assembly pieces, I guess old day's timbers assembly are just as advanced atleast it is the same sort of thinking that solve the same structural problems.
Now 3dh work in a compleatly different way, it organise it's own simple explained form structure by math rules creating the bilding compoments from a simple set of math rules , there are no taking the measures to deliver them, they are delivered with the calculated entity , --- that mean an advancement further than specialising, a new dimension in structural thinking, and that fit hardware wired with reality as in 3D described, just like in a computer , not just strait from calculated entity to the mashin following the data output to cut the building frame, but also strait delivery by no translating the measures from model to mashined part, 3dh cover it all, it replace the special fitting with one made in 3dh so to say, that way there are only one not hundreds of assembly lines one for each special entity to form the structure by all, 3dh is one. |
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usarender
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Joined: 01 May 2004
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Location: San Diego, Ca
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| Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 3:37 pm Post subject: About the Palaces System further details... |
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It was an interesting debate, until it turned into a war zone of accusations.
In any event -->>
http://www.designcommunity.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=9082&start=105
There you can see the system and also some of the objections, on the fireproofing methods to use, which are unclear in such systems, as you cited. But, if I am not mistaken, Lion stated somewhere there that the system was fire resistant, not sure. Check it to see. Let me know what you think. |
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P.C.
millennium club
Joined: 26 May 2004
Posts: 2163
Location: Denmark
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| Posted: Fri Oct 12, 2007 2:25 am Post subject: |
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Please don't think my arguments are nothing else than trying to realise the ideal and from that look closer to what the arguments are. I do critic heavy use of petrochemicals, but I rather se them used there than being burned into heat energy in combustion engines , --- one day when the first alians looks at our world and see how valuable recources are vasted in cars and power plants , maybe only then we realise what a vaste.
But then as I to has worked with polyester and epoxies I rather se these materials develobed and used in fact I don't fear atomic energy and see it together with the sources of energy develobed recently as the future --- but.
What I find most important is to realise, that the choice of materials are a much more tight woven set of oppotunities than focusing on one method and one technike or one perspective only ; not to realise when the pet material and method are suddenly not capable and a compleatly different aproach acturly deliver the solution.
-------- That develobing further into the petrochemical meateials is maybe not the ideal direction, as what offer strength might not deliver other important issues. And develobing into metal based structures could be more relevant than further develobing into plastics, that will not live up to the demands of heat resistance.
Still , I don't say I am right all I have is my arguments . |
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usarender
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Joined: 01 May 2004
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Location: San Diego, Ca
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| Posted: Fri Oct 12, 2007 2:29 pm Post subject: heat resistance and fireproofing |
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Well, when it comes to heat resistance, metal structures also must be somehow fireproofed, or they will simply collapse under intense heat. Of course, if sections of a structure are taken out, and the structure still stands, this is the key. We have fire sprinkler systems, but fireproofing all the tensile structures and ribs would require some good fireproofing, and the easier to apply the better.
We need to think of structures that can be one with the building envelope, I believe, and allow for fluid forms and architecture. To think of the structure as a separate element, seems fine for the craftsman churches of gothic ages, and now in our modern day steel structures, but can't we think of new ways to build, more integrated solutions?
Last edited by usarender on Mon Nov 26, 2007 10:55 am; edited 1 time in total |
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usarender
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Joined: 01 May 2004
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Location: San Diego, Ca
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| Posted: Fri Oct 12, 2007 2:32 pm Post subject: heat resistance and fireproofing |
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Well, when it comes to heat resistance, metal structures also must be somehow fireproofed, or they will simply collapse under intense heat. Of course, if sections of a structure are taken out, and the structure still stands, this is the key. We have fire sprinkler systems, but fireproofing all the tensile structures and ribs would require some good fireproofing, and the easier to apply the better.
We need to think of structures that can be one with the building envelope, I believe, and allow for fluid forms and architecture. To think of the structure as a separate element, seems fine for the craftsman churches of gothic ages, and now in our modern day steel structures, but can't we think of new ways to build, more integrated solutions?
Last edited by usarender on Mon Nov 26, 2007 10:58 am; edited 1 time in total |
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P.C.
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Joined: 26 May 2004
Posts: 2163
Location: Denmark
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| Posted: Fri Oct 12, 2007 3:18 pm Post subject: |
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Ofcaurse -- think about the best heat protection cooling. Double walled frames are as easy and accurate by measure, in fact you can have one smaller frame within a frame, the space between then is a smaller volume, as small as you decide, and allready there, --- as within the smaller frame there are a volume to --- there are the possibility of designing the ideal cooling element ; case one wanted the simple one for say a building, then filling the smaller volume with water, will provide the best fire resistance system possible ; -- case you doubt this, remember how you can boil water in a piece of paper , how a kettle can stand in a fury fire, as long as water can boil and that way install an enomous security , just try calculate how little water you in fact need to tame a fury fire the heat energy from that, by making water into steam ; think about the kettle.
And is this then possible --- well allready I think quite accurate engineering is possible, micro welding make this within reach ,and if we were familuar with basic 3dh structures, then this next step would be childs play, where now where 3dh is hardly understood, this maybe sound to fantastic , --- bit would it realy be ?
Emagine the gains, a complete shuttle designed as a passiv cooling element --- by passive I mean expantion chamber and condensation chamber run exactly as the oldfasion expansion frezes, those without a compressor ; functions like that, is with 3dh easily possible and build into the design of say, a shuttle, a shuttle that need an active passive ciiling system that will start automaticly, just the heat rises.
Now isn't that better than isolating but knowing that nomatter what , and without a cooling system, then the heat Will reach the core at some point in time while the only thing that will work, is a working cooling system , either by a water cape by double walled framework with hollow core to reduce weight and the outher and inner walling interconnected into a honeycomb structure to ensure ,same weight as a single walled frame.
What's wrong replacing the petrochemical casted and formed bits and pieces, with a totaly controlled and by micro measure cut framework , that will offer same or a bit higher weight, but ensure the heat to be able to ecape and even add the energy recources --- just asking. |
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usarender
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Location: San Diego, Ca
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| Posted: Fri Oct 12, 2007 3:44 pm Post subject: a few ideas |
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True, but I can't imagine a styrofoam box, or any other for that matter, now des integrating under intense heat, whether it is filled with water or not. In effect you will have a melting structure with water gushing out in every direction.
Now, the other volumes, filled with water would desintegrate, while inner chambers would survive, until the fire slowly ate away at the chambers. Even with water, if you have an immense amount of jet fuel, even a small spark will ignite. And water and fuel do not mix.
Really, 3dh is not such a good solution. I see much more future in inflatable devices and inflatable structures in space.
Further, am not sure how a metal framework will allow heat to escape better then the high strength carbon fibers. This needs explaining.
Those sheets of metal also are so thin, that in the presence of any fire, your 3dh structure would simply disintegrate.
3dh is a nice matrix computer calculation the draws fancy graphics, but really does it have any structural basis at all ? Can sheet metal profile sections really be that resistant in buildings? It may work nice for aircraft or boats, but I say for buildings it will not work. It will collapse under the high loads of structures.
Last edited by usarender on Mon Nov 26, 2007 11:08 am; edited 1 time in total |
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P.C.
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Joined: 26 May 2004
Posts: 2163
Location: Denmark
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| Posted: Sat Oct 13, 2007 3:22 am Post subject: |
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The water issue I only put up to explain how little but right fireproving is needed , you see it is huge amounts of energy that is needed whenever water are turned into steam --- and the best thing about it, is that the water will max. reach a temperture of 100 deg.c. --- I could have suggested to make the frames as hollow frames water filled, but there ofcaurse there will be the problem about weight.
But to emagine a 3dh structural framework for a building , where these two emty vilumes are incapsulated, that is not so difficult as you would think ; sure it is difficult to emagine if you allready have a hard time emagine a 3dh basic structure, but when you can emagine that, it will be easy to realise, that within each frame, you could place a smaller one, and the space between then can have several porpus --- one to make the "skin" of the frame as it's own hollow honeycomb structure, allowing the oppotunity to make it same weight as a single skin frame with a hollow core, but we don't need to add the water before there are a use for it ; it could be added when the temperture indicate a need for it, and remember, from that point untill there are no water left, the structure will newer reach a thousand degree, it will max become 100 deg, as ling the water will boil away , where ---- well I suggest into the inner bigger core .
Then about epoxies ; I know these reinforced carbon sandwich systems, they are great , esp strong in one direction and --- if you put together a 3dh in styrofoam . like the heavy backbone for a helicopter carrying engine aswell as everything else , line a square tube framework but easy cut in styrofoam ; then emagine you tigh it all around with carbon fiber and epoxy, there you assembled from styrofoam 3dh frames has the ideal strong bone covered with the strongest petrochemical material, now you just flush it with acetone and the styrofoam instantly solute into the acetone and you emty it out. -- After that there are build in tanks or depending your design whatever you want to use the hollow framework for. --- now did you think about that, none of these "architects" did, and that among so many other applications, where 3dh can act as something else than a plain shell construction, is kind of lost or rather these robbers made sure I can newer ask funds for develobing the 3dh by robbing my credit. ---- And the applications would have been so many, but ofcaurse it don't ask inteligense to rob someone.
And isn't that simply so sad, sad for both architecture and sad for innovation within architecture, that as soon some bright guy combine the need for a new method that work with computers, --- then a crowd of fame hounting architects are there to rob ; let me show one example that won a contest years after I published the exact same , but when I published I explained how the method was, what new it was, and all those things that was not mentioned with one single word with this project ;
http://www.archidose.org/Blog/HD23a.jpg
------- My problem with this full fledged 3dh structure that this guy won a contest with, is that it would not have won without the structure, that this guy being able to use a computer , must have looked at various architect fora's, where I was there to publish and explain the method, and when I contacted him, just in his answer he prove he has no knowleage about how that structure work and don't even know it is different and impossible to do without a computer --- and yet he defend himself that Nervi produced some structures with a sligh lookalike in the 50' --- only problem is that these are cast concrete and not at all 3dh ,and that his winning project with no doubt is a 3dh , not something you can do without the 3dh system and a computer, not even Nervi tried that.
But vorse of all --- and this is a brand new argument about organic architecture ; Who is it that say that "organic" architecture has to be round buildings, bubble houses, curved rooms and "organic" the way it has been discussed thruout architecture ---- to realise "Organic" architecture that way is a compleat misunderstanding ; Organic architecture are the freedom to act the basic structure do a square house with round rooms, or a round house with square rooms.
Organic architecture is not hippie vise plaster geostatic domes , that's just Domes and the only "organic" there, is the surface mesh that allow these forms, but they are limited in use being just a shell. No organic architecture are the option to allow the computer calculate the framework in way's you would think impossible, offering any form , offering the round house with the square rooms, the build in stairs foundations and four floors one tree floors the other side of the house, --- floors at various hights with no extra cost, as that is taken care of by the framework, that ask no extras to deliver build-in furniture, ancored within structure Curtain wall elements, and floors at various hight --- See that is Organic in thinking, in flexibility --- Gee how I dislike those thives.
And btw --- I am open for any suggestions ! |
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usarender
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Joined: 01 May 2004
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Location: San Diego, Ca
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| Posted: Sat Oct 13, 2007 12:01 pm Post subject: Starting to think |
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I just began to realize how this 3dh thing really does not make sense.
Do you have any structural calculations to show how those sheet metal sections will be as strong as steel girders and beams?
What about all the assembly problems that would be created by hundreds of interlocking pieces needed to be organized on site, welded together?
Really, sheet metal also is not very environmentally friendly.
A need thus, to update this topic in the new year, due to the terrible amount of harassment by PC in this last year.
Therefore, for those who wish to know, the truth about this PC, his system, his personality, and what he has done, please visit this topic -->>
The truth about 3DH and PC
Last edited by usarender on Sun Jan 13, 2008 3:57 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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P.C.
millennium club
Joined: 26 May 2004
Posts: 2163
Location: Denmark
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| Posted: Sat Oct 13, 2007 1:04 pm Post subject: |
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Yes -- but please remember, that the applications is so multible, and it is difficult to realise all options when just realising it , go one step at a time. There are nothing keeping you to define one volume with a specific hollow space, generating the frames for the outher in one scale or one frame type and then doing the incapsulated voluem in a different scale, and direction framework, easily could produce a structural member you newer heard about newer thought usefull or even possible ,but how swell it will fit in when we just understand what great oppotunities this promise,
Still, I find the important issue, that this is a new way to engage a structure, redefine the structure, and newer forget, that it is the computer that made this possible, -- that computers is to be used on their terms, not mirroring our expertations, as they are as limited as how far we can see.
What I say is that when only this begin, it will accumulate from the visions it's been delivered. |
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usarender
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Joined: 01 May 2004
Posts: 1258
Location: San Diego, Ca
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| Posted: Sat Oct 13, 2007 1:19 pm Post subject: Why don't you answer any questions PC? |
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Why is it you never answer any questions PC?
Your 3dh is starting to not make any sense and you just do not deal with the issues !
Last edited by usarender on Mon Nov 26, 2007 11:11 am; edited 1 time in total |
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P.C.
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Location: Denmark
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usarender
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Joined: 01 May 2004
Posts: 1258
Location: San Diego, Ca
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| Posted: Sat Oct 13, 2007 2:24 pm Post subject: yes I did. |
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Yes, I saw those. Some of the postings there go way back to who knows when. Why keep posting the same things over and over again?
Hey Denmark boy, don't you think there could be more efficient progress in advanced systems such as a new language? How about in a more "organic architecture"?
Last edited by usarender on Mon Nov 26, 2007 2:02 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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P.C.
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Joined: 26 May 2004
Posts: 2163
Location: Denmark
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| Posted: Sat Oct 13, 2007 2:34 pm Post subject: |
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Not realy --- I belive the most efficient progress happen realising things or just as important and esp. more constructive, hands-on .
I do have some sense that there be more to the advanced systems as described in pattern language and that direction of architecture, but maybe on a higher level than how thes theories been presented -- it's good to remember how "2D" architecture has been, how much 2D it still is and what I realy think is important, is to remember that "organic" build houses can be square, organic has nothing to do with if a house is round or has organic forms, it is something else that determine that, like the rooms being round within the square house or the house being round but the rooms square, as that is how we like them. |
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